Chatting with Barry Eisler

Interviewed by Kimber L. Rose

After meeting Barry Eisler on myspace of all places, I just had to find out more about the mind that brought us John Rain the best of the best in the world of assassins. Believe it or not, I hadn't read any of his books before I met him, and then I went through the entire series of six books in less than a week. There was just something about the way the characters seemed so three dimensional and the way that their mistakes and accomplishments felt believable to me as an audience member that spoke volumes to me as a writer. Lucky for me, Barry is very accessible to all of his fans on his website and checks in often in the forum as well as in his chat room from time to time. I initially was going to do the same type of interview with him as I do normally, but after getting started I knew that wasn't a possibility and just went for the gold and shot off any question that came to mind. I have to congratulate him on his ability to answer all of my questions even while keeping up with his regularly scheduled programs. :D

When writing your first John Rain book, did you have any idea how popular they would be?

Barry Eisler - I didn't really think about it that much. A lot of people make the mistake of concentrating on goals so big they're more like aspirations. It's better to tuck those big hopes aside and concentrate more on the day-to-day work of achieving them. After all, how are you going to achieve James Patterson's sales if you don't finish the manuscript?

Once you wrote the first book, as I understand it was meant to be a stand alone, how long was it before you finally got the acceptance notification?

BE - I guess it took nearly eight years, soup to nuts, with more rewrites than I can count. It took a long time in part because I had a busy day job, and in part because at first I didn't really know what I was doing, and you learn as you go.

Now, do you know if it's common for a book publisher to offer a series when the book was meant to be a standalone?

BE - I'm not sure how common it is, but publishers do like series. You can think of it as a “stickiness” issue. If a reader likes an author's book, she's somewhat likely to buy something else the author has written. But if that something else is the next installment in a series, the likelihood increases. So for a publisher, a series feels like a safer bet, a surer, faster way to build an audience.

How long does it take you to write a book now, start to finish? How does that break down? First draft? Editing?

BE - Well, I write a book a year, but not all of that year is spent actually writing. I'd say I spend about four to six weeks thinking and planning and four months writing. Once the first draft is done, the edits are easy—probably a month or so of back and forths. The rest of the year is promotion.

Do you make use of outlines when writing?

BE - My outlines are only a few pages. Who are the characters? What's the situation? What's the inciting incident? That's what I need to know to start writing.

Do you find editing easier than writing the book, or vice versa?

BE - Oh God, there's no comparison. It's the difference between bathing a baby—and giving birth.

Now, when you say that it's like bathing a baby and birth...ummmm, would that make the editing the bathing or the birth?  

BE - Editing is the bathing! Which is easy. Giving birth, whether to a story or to a child...that's hard.

How did you come up with the idea for John Rain?

BE - I spent three years in the CIA, I got pretty into a variety of martial arts and then I moved to Tokyo to train in judo. While I was there commuting to work one morning, a vivid image came to me of two men following another man down Dogenzaka street in Shibuya. I still don't know where the image came from, but I started thinking about it. Who are these men? Why are they following that other guy? Then answers started to come: They're assassins. They're going to kill him. But these answers just let to more questions: why are they going to kill him? What did he do? Who do they work for? It felt like a story, somehow, so I started writing.

What's strange, and probably fortuitous, is that I didn't move to Japan with intention or even idea of writing a novel there. I actually just went to train in judo at the Kodokan, to learn Japanese, and to experience first-hand a country and culture that I found fascinating. I think what happened is that living in Tokyo, which for me was a love-at-first-sight experience, catalyzed and expanded on a number of notions that were already lurking in my unconscious.

I say “ catalyzed ” because I have a long-standing interest in what I like to think of as “forbidden knowledge:” methods of unarmed killing, lock picking, breaking and entry, spy stuff, and other things that the government wants only a few select individuals to know. When I was a kid I read a biography of Harry Houdini, and in the book a cop was quoted as saying, “It's fortunate that Houdini never turned to a life a crime, because if he had he would have been difficult to catch and impossible to hold.” I remember thinking how cool it was that this man knew things that people weren't supposed to know, things that gave him special power. Anyway, since then I've amassed a small and unusual library on some of the foregoing and on other esoteric subjects. I think a lot of this must have been building up in my mind like dry tinder, waiting for the spark which life in Tokyo came to provide.

I say “ expanded ” because it was my first-hand introduction to the city, with its jazz clubs and whisky bars; its back alleys; its wonderfully varied illumination; and its tastes and smells, that provided the firm ground in which those pre-existing interests could find purchase.

I don't think it was a coincidence that when the story came to me, it involved assassinations and so many other elements of the “forbidden knowledge” that I'd been studying for years. I started writing, and that was the birth of John Rain and Rain Fall.

So, Barry, seeing how much went into the beginning of the first Rain book I was wondering how you keep the pace moving so quickly and avoid the lulls that can be so common in writing? Is this something that is done in the original writing process naturally?  

BE - I have to admit, I don't have a good answer for this one. I think I'm doing it mostly from instinct, which means I haven't thought about it that much, which means I'm not going to be good at articulating it. I think you want a rhythm in storytelling, and for me, the rhythm for an action story feels like set, build, action, set, build, action. Of course, the real trick is translating this high-level formula to the story at hand. You can't do nonstop action -- first, because action without context is boring; second, because in the absence of rhythm, the reader would get exhausted. It's like humor: every joke requires a setup before the punch line. Of course, a gifted comedian makes the setup extremely satisfying, too.

Is there a significance to the name “John Rain”? How did you come up with the name?

BE - While living in Japan, I read a great book by a guy named Dave Lowry—“Autumn Lightning: The Education of an American Samurai.” In it, there was a quote from a Japanese swordsman on the Meiji-era samurai, for whom there was no longer a purpose in the society. “In the changing of the times,” the swordsman wrote of his forebears, “they were like autumn lightning, a thing out of season, an empty promise of rain that would fall unheeded on fields already bare.” I conceived of Rain in similar terms—someone out of place in the world—and of his brief and torrid romance with the daughter of a man he killed the same way. So his name became Rain.

How did the idea for the series come about?

BE - I hadn't conceived of Rain Fall as the start of a series—the first time it came up was when my then-agent's wife, also an agent, read the last revision before we sent it of to publishers, and said, “I love the ending and see you've left the door open for a sequel.” I thought, “huh, I guess that's true, but…”. And then Putnam preempted an auction—conditioned on a sequel. So I went from there.

Looking back, I'm almost chagrined that I didn't spot the series potential. Rain is such a fascinating and three-dimensional character that one book wouldn't have been nearly enough to explore his world.

Do you feel that the character reflects your own character at all?

BE - There are some similarities. We both love jazz and judo. And quality single malt whisky and other aesthetic experiences. But the differences might be more telling. Rain has had experiences that I haven't, chiefly war, combat, and killing. As a result, he is far more capable with violence than I, and also a good deal more cynical.

I think anytime you create a character, you're identifying certain elements in your own personality, distilling them out, and then culturing them in someone else, where they manifest themselves in a different way. So while I'm overall a pretty optimistic guy, for example, there are cynical streaks within me, streaks that present themselves more comprehensively in a guy like Rain, who doesn't have my native optimism to balance and contain them.

How do you come up with the new plot lines for each subsequent book?

BE - One of your best friends as a writer is what I think of as the “what if” question. “What if someone cloned dinosaurs and planned to open a dinosaur theme park on a remote island?” (“ Jurassic Park ”). “What if a yuppie drug dealer were about to do a seven-year prison stretch?” (“The 25th Hour”). Etc. If the what-if question interests you enough, it'll lead you to other questions, all of the who, what, where, when, why, how variety. Follow those questions and you'll start to find your story.

As for where the initial ideas come from, for me a lot of it comes from the news because I'm a news junkie. Find something that interests you greatly, something you're passionate about, do that thing, and the ideas will come. Then nurture them with the who, what, where, when, why treatment and you'll be on your way.

Noticing the character growth throughout the series, was it planned or did it just occur naturally?

BE - For Rain it was natural. I begin every new book in the series by asking, “Based on what happened in the previous book, what is Rain (and the other characters) doing now? How does he feel, how has he changed, what does he want, what does he fear?” Because Rain's character is so conflicted and complex and because a lot of profound things happen to him in the course of the books, his personality and worldview are always evolving. That's what keeps him interesting for me, and hopefully for readers, too.

Knowing your sense of humor, was it difficult working with more serious storylines?

BE - It wasn't. Rain brings out something serious in me. Dox, on the other hand, is a huge jokester, and it's not a coincidence that many of the sequences where Dox appears are hilarious.

Where on earth do you come up with some of the quirky things you put in your stories, such as ‘Nessie' or Dox's little jokes?

BE - I guess there's just a filter in my brain that traps things useful in novels. So I'll see or hear something, and think, “Oh, yeah, that's perfect for Dox,” or perfect for Rain, or whatever.

What's that saying? “Bad artists borrow. Great artists steal.” But I do always give credit in the acknowledgments…

Was it a surprise to you when your ‘Rainiacs' decided that it was time for their own conference?

BE - I guess it was, but then it immediately felt natural. After all, we've all been shooting the shit on my discussion board for over a year now… it's about time we got to meet in person!

How did you react to finding out that there was a Rain movie in the making, not to mention when they announced that Gary Oldman would be taking a part in it? Were you involved in the process?  

BE - I was thrilled! Especially given that Gary Oldman, one of my favorite actors, was attached to play Rain's CIA nemesis Holtzer. I haven't been all that involved. I adapted the book into a screenplay, which the option holders used to get the movie set up and which Sony bought, so that's nice, but in the end the director Max Mannix decided to write his own screenplay, which is cool, too. Everybody involved with the film has been great about keeping me posted, and it was a thrill to visit the set in Tokyo in May. Speaking of which, for a complete report and photos, here's your link. You can just click on the links; no need to register.   http://www.barryeisler.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=lckqm7sve6ts2hvan2gc7gbsi3&board=26.0  

With the broad amount of information covered in your books it's no surprise that you have so many acknowledgements in each one, how do you meet such interesting people?

BE - I count myself very fortunate in this regard. I guess I've managed to do a few interesting things—travel, the CIA, martial arts, high-tech—and have therefore managed to cross paths with some interesting people. Also, as the books have become better known, they've opened even more doors. For me, interviewing experts is one of the most satisfying and enjoyable aspects of writing, and I'm glad it's such a big part of my work. For the new book, I got to interview several homicide detectives, a patent attorney, a black ops veteran, and the usual doctors and martial artists. It was a blast.

You say that your character ‘John Rain' is much better at judo that you are yourself. How would you compare your own black belt to the vast experience of your character?

BE - Oh God, I'm just a beginner—a first degree black belt in judo, a white belt in jiu-jitsu, and a former high school wrestler. And I've hacked around with a few other things. But Rain has been training diligently in all these arts and more for about thirty years, and in addition to all the theoretical training, he's had countless “close encounters” where he's put the theory into practice. Plus he's a combat veteran, and everything he does is informed by that well-honed killer instinct.

What made you decide to take up Judo yourself?

BE - My overall interest in martial arts has always been for their self-defense value, and I'm of the opinion that if you don't train as close to live as possible, the self-defense value is hard to acquire. Arts that train “live” include things like boxing and Thai boxing, on the striking side, and jiu-jitsu, judo, and wrestling, on the grappling side. I tend to gravitate to grappling arts because I just like grappling, and because my eye-hand coordination is such that in boxing I tend to get hit a lot. So I started with wrestling in high school, did judo when I was in Japan, and then got into Gracie jiu-jitsu when I was back in the States.

You spent quite some time in Tokyo, is that what made you decide on the locale of the first John Rain book?

BE - Yes, although it wasn't so much of a conscious decision. I was just so besotted with Tokyo that it was natural the city would offer itself up as a venue when a story came to me.

With so many exotic locales how do you decide where the next book will take place?

BE - Well, the new one takes place mostly in the San Francisco Bay Area, which is no longer so exotic to me because I've lived here on and off for about fifteen years, but still a fascinating place for that exercise of finding and distilling the essence of a thing, which I think is what writers should do. And there are also some sequences in Istanbul, which was a fascinating place to visit for research. For the next one? I don't know yet, but I'm working on it…

Is there a reason that John always seems to return to Tokyo regardless of how much trouble could be waiting for him there? Will he continue to return even now that there isn't nearly as much holding him there?

BE - There have always been two crucial allies drawing him back there: Tatsu, of the Japanese FBI, and Kanezaki, of the CIA. But there have also been less tangible, though arguably more powerful reasons, having to do with a sense of loss and a longing to fit in. As the mix of those motivations waxes and wanes, Rain's perambulations have varied accordingly. My guess now is that he'll be visiting Tokyo less often—but I've been wrong about that kind of thing before.

Do you see an end to the series anytime soon? Do you see John settling down with Delilah?

BE - The conflicts at the heart of Rain's character have always been impells the stories in the series. As those conflicts lessen, the character will come to rest. At that point, he won't be able to drive the series anymore, though I could see him in a supporting role for someone else—Dox, Delilah, maybe Kanezaki. I think after Requiem, we're probably at that point. But I've always sensed that there's a fascinating story behind how Rain became who and what he is, so there's also a possibility of a prequel—an “origin of Rain” story.

Where do you hear about all the neat toys that John plays with in his role as assassin?

BE - Again, I read a lot, and every now and then I'll stumble across something and just think, “Oh yeah, that would be great. Gotta use that.” Like the SoldierVision see-through-walls device in Rain Storm, or the nonlethal millimeter wave energy weapon in Requiem. Good stuff.

Do you have any new books in the works?

BE - Just finished the new one. It's a standalone thriller, not set in Rain's universe, but it contains all the elements people seem to enjoy about the Rain books: compelling, conflicted characters; realistic action and tradecraft; exotic settings (got to visit Istanbul for research on this one); steamy sex; political backstory straight from the headlines. I had a great time writing it and think Rain fans are in for a treat.

You mentioned that you just finished a new thriller that isn't in the Rain Universe, does it have a name or a release date as of yet?  

BE - Yes to both: Fault Line, out in February 2009. Again, more info here. No need to register, just click on the links...   http://www.barryeisler.com/forum/index.php?board=23.0  

Now for my favorite question, what is your ideal writing day?

BE - A cup of home-made coffee; a few hours with the news; a blog entry on politics and language; 2000 words on the manuscript; a nap; a workout; time with my family.

For anyone interested in learning more about Barry Eisler, the John Rain Universe, the new book Fault Line due out in February of 2009 or about the new John Rain movie starring Gary Oldman feel free to check out Barry's website at www.BarryEisler.com.